Look around any gym, athletic field, rec center, you are bound to see people stretching their quads like so:
This is actually a pretty crappy quad stretch. The quadriceps are made of four muscles, hence “quad,” and the above stretch actually only hits 3 of the muscles-
- vastus intermedius,
- vastus lateralis
- and vastus medialis.
The fourth, rectus femoris, isn’t adequately stretched.
Contrary to the other 3 muscles, rectus femoris connects from the hip to the knee. The other quadriceps only connect from the thigh to the knee. Thus, rectus femoris flexes the hip and extends the knee. It pulls your knee to your chest, and it straightens the knee. In contrast to the other quads which only straighten the knee.
Notice how much higher rectus femoris starts compared to the other muscles
Ok, so picture holding a long band with your hands. One hand holding one side of the band, the other hand holding the other side. If you wanted stretch that band you would pull it from both sides as opposed to only one, right?
Therein lies the issue with your conventional quad stretch. It is only stretching the rectus femoris from the bottom part of the muscle, rather from the top and bottom. The stretch is flexing the knee a great deal, stretching the knee extensors, but it’s not extending the hip at all. It’s akin to pulling the band only with one hand.
We need to stretch it from both ends i.e. we need to flex the knee and extend the hip at the same time.
Now this stretch gets absolutely butchered all over the internet. It often looks something along the line of:
Notice how the lower back is arching and how far the hip is pushing forward. This is not what we want. This is actually stretching the front portion of the hip capsule, a huge no-no. Also, a lot of the range of motion is being achieved by the lower back rather than just the knee and hip.
And for those who say you are doing this stretch to stretch out the psoas, keep in mind when the lower back arches the psoas is actually shortened. So while you may be stretching the psoas from the bottom portion -the hip extension- you are actually tightening the muscle from the upper portion. Using our rubber band again, you’re doing this:
Lengthen one side, followed by shortening the other = no net stretch.
This is what we’re shooting for:
Notice the differences: The glute of the leg being stretched (right leg in the above video) is forcefully contracted (watch close, you’ll see it) and the abdominals are pulled forcefully inward to insure the lower back doesn’t arch. This insures all of the range of motion is from the lower body.
-> Note forcefully does not mean squeezing for dear life. It just means you’re clearly contracting the musculature. If you’re grimacing your teeth, about to pass out, are feeling a vague analogy to being on the toilet, you’re squeezing too hard.
This is a great stretch for those with lower back pain, knee pain -you’ll likely notice it helps alleviate a lot of knee pain around the knee cap as soon as you stand up- and actually for those suffering from chronic hamstring strains.
This isn’t a great stretch for those with hip pain. Form becomes absolutely crucial and you’re honestly just playing with fire if you have hip issues and you do this stretch.
pursuenaturalny2008
November 7, 2011
These are great suggestions and thank you for sharing. Three generations of my family share knee pain – osteo arthritis. I will share your great article with all.
reddyb
November 8, 2011
Thanks for the words. Glad you liked it.
Fred
November 3, 2012
Thanks a lot for this post. There are only a few truly-knowledgeable people on the internet in this subject area. You, Eric Cressey, and Kelly Starett (at Crossfit San Francisco) are the only ones I have found. Still, you guys disagree on a few things, such as external rotator stretches.
A few months ago, I started Starting Strength. I am a 21 year old male. Squatting three times a week gave me very intense pain in my right SI region after a few weeks. It felt like a bit of sciatica as well. After that, I realized that I couldn’t even stay in the bottom of a bodyweight squat. I couldn’t get forward far enough, which I believed to be my ankles, and I couldn’t get my knees out far enough, which I believed to be external rotators. I decided that if I couldn’t even get into the bottom of a bodyweight squat, what right did I have to be doing weighted squats. Whenever I tried to get my knees wide enough, I felt a strange ‘pinching’ pain in the right side of my groin.
Since then, I have been doing many hours of research into proper stretches. There are so many conflicting sources though. Using your ‘a better quad stretch’ which I got off of the mobilitywod site, I went from being unable to get even close to the position to being comfortable there. I’ll admit I probably did it wrong for a while though, arching the back and stretching the wrong part of the hip. I’ve been trying external rotator stretches (the ‘pigeon’ yoga pose), but a lot of the time I just get that pinching sensation in the right side of my groin again, and it feels like I end up stretching my glutes instead of my TFL.
I’ve tried different TFL stretches, and I understand the rationale behind what you’re saying. However, when I try the lying TFL stretch I don’t feel anything, and when I do the standing one I feel a lot of pain in my knee. Is this normal? Should I push though it? I’m very frustrated right now – I’ve been spending hours and hours on this and I feel like I’m getting nowhere because of the conflicting information. I just want to be able to hold a squat position. Also, if you can recommend anyone in Canada (either Vancouver or Toronto), that would be great.
Thanks again,
Fred
reddyb
November 4, 2012
Hey Fred,
If you’re able to get a video of you attempting a squat that would really help.
Miscellaneously:
-You’re right. If you can’t squat properly with your bodyweight there’s no benefit in loading yourself.
-This is really hard to tell without seeing you move, but based on you having pain in the SI region along with the pinching, it sounds like you’re lacking posterior glide of the femur.
-If you have pain in the knee during the standing TFL / IT band stretch you’re likely just really tight in that muscle along with the RF. Go through the ways to decrease the stretch I wrote about and work your way up to a more intense stretch as the muscle loosens up. You should notice after a few dedicated sets that pain going away, if this is indeed the cause of the knee issue. I see this quite often FWIW. And you should not push through pain. Lessen the stretch, lessen the pain, then intensify.
-Based off you getting more pinching during the Pigeon pose, the posterior glide issue comes to mind again. Not sure if you’ve seen this, but I write a lot about this here: http://b-reddy.org/2012/10/08/you-shouldnt-stretch-your-hip-flexors-if-you-have-hip-pain/
-The Pigeon pose isn’t stretching the external rotators or the TFL anyways, and it causes you issues, I’d just get rid of it. Tangent: You feel a stretch in the area of the external rotators because you’re stretching the hip extensors. In order to stretch the ER though, the hip would need to be internally rotated. Ironically, I just reread your comment and the sensations you’re feeling are exactly what I just typed. So you have already seemed to figure this out yourself based on feel.
-As far as stretching the external rotators, I don’t think I’ve had anyone perform a dedicated ER stretch (for the hips) in at least 2 years. Remember, the external rotators help pull the knees OUT, which you state is hard for you. So, you actually want to tighten / strengthen these muscles, not stretch / loosen them.
-If you’re number one goal is to work on squat depth then I’d make that your number one stretch, ala a Toddler Squat (I have an extensive post on this coming soon): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc3V3f45nOI
This will help with the posterior glide of the femur as well.
-I don’t know Kelly, but I personally worked with Eric. Keep in mind the population he is dealing with relative to me. He has a plethora of baseball pitchers whose front leg doesn’t almost nothing but external rotation all day. Thus, in his population, there could be a need for doing the opposite (internal rotation which would stretch the ER). As I mentioned though, I just don’t see this in the everyday population and I have a hard time imagining a scenario where anyone could justify it.
-If there was a link as to where you found my stretch would you mind sending it along to me? I’d appreciate it.
-Unfortunately, despite the fact I love Vancouver, I don’t know anyone to recommend in Canada. My network is honestly limited as I’m very, very select in who I will refer people to.
-I’m very familiar with Starting Strength…I would never squat someone (with a barbell) three times a week…
In summary: Do that toddler squat stretch.
Hope this helps. Like I said, feel free to send any videos along. I might be able to get more specific.
Fred
November 5, 2012
Thanks a lot, what you’re saying makes quite a bit of sense. I’ll see what I can do about the video as well.
So I’ll ditch the quad stretch, and focus on both the toddler stretch, and the IT/TFL one. For the toddler stretch, it looks like feet are pointed straight ahead and knees are a bit less than shoulder width? Is there anything wrong with turning the toes out a bit? Also, I feel like a lot of my inability to hold the toddler stretch at the bottom is due to ankle inflexibility – have you seen that often?
Looking at the article you pointed me to, I definitely have that bad, lordosis-like posture. I’m really going to focus on both standing and sitting up straight from now on.
I found the quad stretch here: [redacted broken link]
That is kelly’s site, he’s very popular with crossfitters.
Needless to say, if I’m ever in San Diego…
Fred
reddyb
November 5, 2012
You can mix up the width of the feet to change the stretch and get some variety. Typically the wider the feet the more of a stretch people feel in their groin.
You try to keep the toes as straight as possible, as toeing out is often a sign of restricted ankles. However, some toeing out is rarely something I’m overly concerned with. As long as it doesn’t compromise knee positioning (the knees aren’t overly rotated).
I definitely see people who can’t get all the way down due to their ankle mobility. Throwing some heel lifts (like plates) under the feet will help this. However, you don’t want to overly rely on the heel lifts. You should be working on full depth without their assistance as well. Ala mix it up. Sometimes with the plates, sometimes without, until you don’t need them at all anymore.
Let me know how things go.
-Brian
John
December 1, 2012
A bit of an update: I’ve been doing the toddler squat stretch about half an hour a day. I keep my heels on a folded-up towel and gradually de-fold the towel as my ankle flexibility improves. The position is definitely getting more comfortable. I started off just letting my knees do what they want, but I think they were collapsing in a bit so I’ve been trying to force them out a bit as I hold the position. I’ve also been working on lying hip-extensions to work the glutes. A few questions:
1. I’ve started having some weird tingly nerve-like pains in my left ankle throughout the day (not during the squat). I think it got worse when I started trying to force my knees out. Any idea what this might be?
2. You mention in your don’t-stretch-the-hip-flexors post that the adductors are generally tight in anterior femoral glide. Would you recommend stretching the adductors? Whenever my stance in the toddler squat gets shoulder-width or wider I get a lot of pain in my upper groin (both sides). This doesn’t feel like good stretching pain, and it doesn’t feel muscular.This even happens during the butterfly stretch, but the pain isn’t as intense and I think I feel a bit of a stretch in the adductors.
Fred
December 1, 2012
Oops, last post should be by Fred – don’t know how that auto-corrected in there.
reddyb
December 1, 2012
Hey Fred,
1) Could really be anything. If you’re having issues down the whole leg, that’s typically sciatic. Just in the ankle though, and the possibilities are vast.
2) Note that I specifically mention the adductor magnus. While I’m not saying there aren’t issues with the other adductors, the magnus is a distinct adductor as it performs hip extension. The others perform hip flexion. Big difference.
You may be trying to reach out too far. I wouldn’t be trying to widen my legs until I could get all the way down easily i.e. you don’t need that towel at all.
As far as stretching the adductors, it really depends. If you truly have femoral anterior glide issues then I typically take out all hip flexor stretching, and instead stretch the adductors in hip flexion with abduction (toddler squat would be one example).
I don’t use the butterfly stretch though. I just don’t like the idea of stretching the adductors while sitting like that. There’s not enough room for the femur to glide backwards. Not saying it’s a bad stretch; rather I’d do other things.
Also, a half hour a day seems a bit much. You mean a total of 30 minutes a day are spent in the full toddler position?
Get me a video if you can. Glad to take a look.
Overall, my guess is you’re pushing things too far. For some people it may take (many) months to fully get down and be able to hold themselves.
Lastly, keep in mind this is all one component of getting out of pain. How you’re moving throughout the day, and all the other things you’re doing, have (!) to be heavily considered.
Sorry, I know this is vague, but it’s the best I can do through text.
Fred
December 10, 2012
Yes, I’ve been spending about a half hour per day in the full squat. I just do it when I’m watching TV. You’re probably right that I’m pushing it too far, it’s just hard to see how a few minutes in a squat every day will counteract my other 12 or so hours of sitting (studying for exams..). I think that the ankle pain was my peroneal nerve – I used a tennis ball to massage the peroneals and it mostly went away.
Also, you mentioned earlier that you have a lot of experience with Starting Strength, and that you wouldn’t recommend it. Why is that? I’ve heard nothing but good things about it all over the internet + in real life.
reddyb
December 11, 2012
I believe Starting Strength is woefully inadequate. Now it’s been a while since I’ve read up on it, but these are random thoughts from what I remember:
-I completely disagree with Rippetoe on the whole “Squatting and deadlifting work your core all you need.” What Rip ignores is not the strength training aspect of the core, it is motor control and endurance. If you’re someone who has issues with excessive rotation at the lumbar spine, deadlifting is not going to work on this.
-The program beats the shit out of people’s shoulders. If you’re someone with completely healthy shoulders, no movement issues or any injury history, then you’re probably going to be alright (at least for a while). But then I’d make the argument there’s no prehab in the program. And no, benching with proper form is not sufficient for preventing injury.
While I don’t know his entire history, there’s a reason Rippetoe has had shoulder issues and shoulder surgery himself.
-I’ve moved more and more away from deadlifting. I know this is sacrilegious in the strength training community, but unless you’re competing in powerlifting, the risks of deadlifting have begun to outweigh the positives in my mind.
When 80% of the population has lower back issues at some point or another, I just don’t see the benefit in doing a movement that so heavily weighs on the lower back. And as I’ve talked about on here a lot, lower back strength is just about never the problem for people. So this isn’t a plausible argument for deadlifting.
-I believe the main argument for the program was to put muscle on people as fast as possible. While the barbell lifts are indeed great for this, I don’t really care if it takes someone an extra month, or months, to put on some muscle if comes along with a more balanced approach and healthier joints.
And I really think the reason the program gets muscle on people quickly has more to do with the eating aspect. You don’t NEED barbell lifts to put muscle on, but you NEED food.
I could go on for a while about this but you get the idea.
Fred
January 30, 2013
That’s very interesting, thank you. I absolutely had shoulder issues when I was trying out the full starting strength program. Are there any specific prehab movements for the shoulders that you would recommend for someone doing a bench press + shoulder press + row + pullup intensive program?
reddyb
February 1, 2013
These are two exercises I use extensively:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IrOlWaeeRtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0sHrR2lMO_4
You can read more about them in these two posts if you’re curious:
http://b-reddy.org/2011/08/04/3-common-tight-muscles/
http://b-reddy.org/2011/09/12/3-common-weak-muscles/
May
February 17, 2013
Hi just discovered your site in search of ways to alleviate knee and lowback pain. Great stuff on here. Lots of the same stuff I’ve learned through 8 yrs of intermittent physical therapy. So really nice to see there’s a pattern here for alleviating these chronic problems. I do this stretch frequently on the couch using good form. My question is do you have a good stretch for the psoas? I was told cobras would be good (laying prone and arching upper body up like a cobra) but I’m afraid that puts my low back into too much extension and therefore shortening the psoas as you said? Thank you! So glad to have found this site!
reddyb
February 17, 2013
Hey May,
This stretch will hit the psoas plenty. It’s crucial the lower back remains neutral though; if the lower back arches the psoas is not being fully stretched. If you have trouble you may want to try something like this as it’s much easier to know when your lower back is moving: b-reddy.org/2012/03/04/the-best-damn-it-band-stretch-ever/
This is another way of loosening the psoas as well (I’ll go over this in more detail in a post one day): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY3lmig5fKw
The cobra is not a good psoas stretch for the reason you mentioned and I just went over (the lower back arching). Really any stretching where you put the lower back into hyperextension is a bad idea.
Hope this helps.
deb
April 28, 2013
Thnx
Justin Archer (@ThePostureGuy)
December 6, 2013
I usually do this one against a wall or couch w/ the posterior pelvic tilt. I’ve also tried adding in some thoracic rotation and found it ties in the side and spiral lines quite nicely. I’m also experimenting with internally and externally rotating the femur along with ab/aduction to see if I can emphasize the stretch on the vastus lateralis, intermedius, medialis, or thigh/groin musculature. If you’ve experimented with the same I’d be interested to hear your findings.
reddyb
December 7, 2013
Hey Justin,
I shy away from the moving the spine at all during this stretch. Doing so typically puts the lower back into extension and the thoracic spine into rotation. Neither of which is usually desired. I have a post about this coming up.
It’s extremely rare I do anything where I promote internal rotation of the femur. If I do, it’s almost always in a prone manner.
I’ll focus on adduction in some instances to aim more at the TFL. I talk about this here: http://b-reddy.org/2012/03/04/the-best-damn-it-band-stretch-ever/
And in a manner similar to the stretch you’re talking about here: http://b-reddy.org/2012/06/01/standing-version-of-the-best-damn-it-band-stretch/
In terms of ab/adduction and the quadriceps, I can’t see any mechanism where you’re going to change the stretch on this musculature through these movements. Based on the orientation of these muscles, ab/duction really isn’t a factor. Based on where they start and finish, besides some possible play at the patella, they really only have a role in the sagittal plane.
John
September 8, 2016
Hi, what would you suggest to people who experience pain on patellar tendon during this stretch? I suffer from jumpers knee(patellar tendonosis)and I have pain from this stretch even after doing it. Is there any version of rectus femoris stretch that wouldn’t cause pain for people with patellar tendonosis? Great stretch for my other leg though.
reddyb
September 9, 2016
I’d lessen the intensity of the stretch.
-Not rock as far forward (lessen the amount of hip extension).
-Lean the upper body forward. (Flexes hips thus lessening stretch.)
-Not have the back foot as elevated. This could happen through putting the foot on something lower than a bench, or elevating the down knee so the foot isn’t as high relative to the knee.
John
September 11, 2016
Thanks.
1.And maybe add some soft tissue work?
2.What about people with anterior femoral glide. What way should they stretch their rectus femoris?
3. You say this is not good stretch for people with hip issues. Does this include all hip issues? Even outer hip clicking or Trochanteric bursitis?. Because I need to stretch my quads because of knees issues and have afore mentioned hip issues.
reddyb
September 13, 2016
1) https://b-reddy.org/2015/02/02/recovery-modalities-whats-worthwhile-along-with-some-massage-discussion/
https://b-reddy.org/2013/05/20/issues-with-foam-rolling/
2) Unlikely something the person wants to be doing until the hip calms down. Hip extension is not usually friendly to someone with femoral anterior glide issues. Note the post mentions how using the stretch here can be done, but attention to form is imperative.
3) Emailing me vs commenting about hip clicking won’t change my answer! Furthermore, one needs to assess if the clicking, bursitis, and femoral anterior glide aren’t all connected.