I edited the emails for brevity and I’ve bolded what I deem most important. From an email exchange:
“Brian,
Seriously. Your Blog is awesome. I found you last night while searching for TFL stretches, which in fact, truly is the Best stretch. Kudos to you.
I just finished reading your article on lateral pelvic tilt. I suffer occasionally from right foot pain. It goes away with stretching ‘something’ on my right lateral trunk. When I hit the ‘sweet spot’, hip pain goes away, thigh pain goes away, and best ever, foot pain goes away. I also feel like I can breath deep into that area when its released, as well as sit up straight.
Now, I wish I could be the person that just says, ‘welp, good, it’s gone’ and move on. But I’m a Physician Assistant, in medical, obviously, and anatomically speaking, am dying to figure out what the problem is to begin with, so it doesn’t happen yet again.
I’m curious as to what insight you might have on this. I was thinking quadratus, and maybe lower lat both pulling and pinching at the waist. I don’t know. You talk a lot about external obliques. Could that be the issue as well?
Thank you in advance for any insight!
Jennifer”
I then asked Jennifer for a little more info,
Currently, I have no hip or thigh pain, or back pain. The foot pain is not present when barefoot(or goes away fairly quickly when my shoe comes off), and feels better with a quad stretch and when I stand up really tall and straight, as if I’m stretching my abdominals. These all help, and briefly take it away, but it comes back.
Wearing sneakers makes my foot feel like its falling asleep, when I loosen the laces, it feels wonderful.
I’m starting to wonder if my quads are the issue + stooping to write in charts all day. In essence, something anterior, not posterior?
And some more,
I always have ‘some degree’ of hip and back pain. Nothing usually long standing. That’s been gone now for the past 24 hrs or more. The foot has been bothering me (eeeek) since August, 3 months after purchasing a treadmill. Which I use at a level 4 incline, 4.5 MPH, at least an hour a day.
I bike as well, about 100 miles per week.
I’m not always pain free barefoot, but more so than with shoes.
Oh, and the stretch I did that gave me the greatest relief? Weird I know, but I leaned back against a wall and did a pelvic tilt and stretched forward with my arms.
Ok, yes. I was running up a hill, maybe 6% grade(?), steeper than I usually use on my treadmill. I felt a sharp stabbing pain R forefoot, 3 or 4th metatarsal. I stopped, and felt a painful ‘knot’ in that area every time I took a step.
I’ve always had a ‘stiff’ R upper back/lat that I attribute to my work.
I don’t recall any worsening of my ‘usual’ back pain at that time, although I remember feeling as if the whole R side of me was just locked together, like how myofascial therapists describe fascial pain and tightness.
For example, I swore that every time I raised my arm over my head I felt pain and a tightness down to my toes.
Ok, so there is a lot going on here. Really, without seeing someone like this, I’m making guesses. However, for fun, I’m going to run with it. Even with guessing I think I can give some insight.
How the feet and hips are connected
Watch this video. First, watch the knees, then watch the feet.
Notice how the knees are rotating inward, then outward, AND when the knees rotate the feet reciprocate?
That is, when the knees medially rotate the feet tend to pronate; when the knees laterally rotate the feet tend to supinate. Watch the video a few times and you’ll see it.
Now, watch what is going on with the hips during this:
There tends to be a relationship between the position of the hips and the position of all the joints below.
Specifically, if the hips rotate forward (anterior pelvic tilt) the knees tend to medially rotate and the feet tend to pronate.
If the hips posteriorly tilt then the knees tend to laterally rotate and the feet tend to supinate.
These aren’t guarantees, merely tendencies. For instance, while the above person tends to compensate with rotation, the following person compensates more with hyperextension at the knees.
While there is little rotation here,
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There is plenty of hyperextension here,
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When the feet tend to hurt
The more common of the two sequences I just went over is far and away: Hip(s) rotated forward – > Knees medially rotated -> Feet pronated. (As opposed to the opposite sequence of Hips rotated back -> Knees laterally rotated -> Feet supinated.)
And when the feet pronate too much is when they tend to hurt.
It’s important to mention here both limbs don’t have to follow this. That is, the right (or left) side may be the side where there is a rotated hip, knee and foot, while the other side may be ok.
If you look at this video again you’ll notice the right leg (left in video) rotates more than the left.
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It’s also important to mention while this sequence of hips -> knees -> feet can happen, feet -> knees -> hips can also happen. Bringing us to,
Being barefoot mitigates things
One explanation for your relief while barefoot is being barefoot makes a person much less likely to rotate the foot.
Think of it this way, are you more likely to sprain your ankle stepping near a curb or on completely flat ground? The curb, of course.
Why is this? The curb essentially gives the foot / ankle room to “roll over.”
This is because the foot has become elevated. In other words, it’s much harder to roll over flat ground than to roll over a curb.
Think of wearing shoes as putting your foot on top of a curb, except in this case instead of the foot potentially rolling out, it potentially rolls inward.
Put simply, being barefoot you’re less likely to overpronate your foot. It can certainly still happen, but typically to a much lesser degree than while wearing shoes. Especially if you wear shoes with a significant heel lift or cushioning.
Bringing us back to the hips
As you mentioned, you seem to get some relief when doing certain things for the hips. One of those things is standing up nice and straight and or posteriorly tilting the pelvis while on a wall.
If, again I’m making assumptions here, you’re someone with the aforementioned hip rotated / tilted, knees inward, feet pronated, you now have a possible explanation as to why doing certain hip movements alleviates your foot: Putting the hips in a certain alignment may put your feet in a certain (likely better) alignment.
Some anatomy for you
Since I know you’re curious as to what specific anatomy could be influencing things, I figured I’d delve in a bit.
I’m going to have to take your word you’re tight in the latissimus dorsi / lats. Specifically the right lat.
Everyone always talks about the lat relative to the shoulder. It extends, adducts and medially rotates the shoulder. But, the lat also plays a crucial role in the lower back.
By pulling on the lower back the lat can extend the lower back and anteriorly tilt the pelvis. If only one side is doing this, then some rotation at the lumbar spine and pelvis can occur as well.
If you look closely at the shirt lines on the above person, you can actually see them beginning to resemble the line of pull of the lat,
You mentioned issues when lifting your right arm; what does lifting the arm do to the lat? Stretches it (potentially). If you’re stretching an overactive lat you could end up pulling the lower back into extension and possibly rotation. See the lower back in this video
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(Ideally the lower back remains flat against the wall. However, by coming off the wall the lat is being stretched distally BUT NOT proximally. Negating the overall stretch.)
If the external oblique on the same side (right) can’t counteract the pull of the lat, the pelvis will anteriorly tilt and rotate.
Putting the tensor fascia latae (TFL) in a shortened position,
Making it more likely the knee will medially rotate (as the TFL can play a role with internal rotation of the knee); making it more likely the foot will overpronate.
Which makes it more likely you’ll have issues at the foot.
Because, in terms of an anatomical connection to the foot, by the foot excessively pronating the peroneals are put into a shortened position; the peroneals connect to the bottom of the foot.
If a particular muscle is constantly pulling on the bottom of the foot, pain at the bottom of the foot can be present.
Treadmills
Something else to consider is the extensive use (you mention an hour a day) of a treadmill.
Keep in mind by the nature of a treadmill the body isn’t doing the same type of work when bringing the leg backwards. (The tread has influence in how the leg is brought back.) However, the body is still doing it’s normal amount of work when bringing the leg forward. (If not more.) [1]
In anatomy speak, when running on a treadmill you aren’t using your hip extensors as much but you’re using your hip flexors as normal / more.
Theorizing: It’s possible the extensive use of the treadmill has led to you having stronger hip flexors than hip extensors.
Let’s say you’ve developed your TFL (hip flexor) more than your posterior glutes (hip extensors). The TFL internally rotates the knee, the posterior glutes laterally rotate the knee. (See the videos again above if necessary.)
So, if the TFL has become a bit too dominant this could cause your knee to excessively medially rotate…which could cause your foot to excessively pronate…which could cause foot pain.
By loosening up the TFL you may be (at least temporarily) correcting this internal rotation and subsequent overpronation.
There are some other possible explanations -sciatic stuff being a very prominent factor in my mind here- but I don’t want to go on forever about this. I think your main question was how the hips / lower back could be related to your foot, and this is a good idea of how the kinetic chain can (and many times does) function together.
It’s not as simple as “This one muscle is tight” though. Not at all. There are a ton of muscles that come into play here.
General foot pain talk
Lastly, I want to mention I rarely ever go after foot pain in this manner. I first and foremost go after the foot itself, then look at other factors.
I’d start by examining what type of footwear you have as there definitely seems to be a relationship between what’s on your foot and your pain. Second, I’d look to see if you had an aberrant movement at the foot (like the overpronation discussed), third, if there’s no movement issue it’s probably coming from either your footwear or it’s sciatic related.
(And yes, you could have a multiple issues concurrently. That is, you could have a foot issue and sciatic issue at the same time.)
Where the rest of the chain can come into play is: In a regular exercise program these are movement issues that should be paid attention to anyways. Considering I pretty much always exercise the entire body with people and not just one joint, I suppose I am attacking multiple joints even when attempting to alleviate one specific condition. But it’s not like I’d go, “So her foot hurts…what’s her lat doing?” Certainly not initially. The thinking starts, “Her foot hurts…what’s her foot doing?”
Hopefully this gives you some insight!
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[1] Update 4/9/2014: Modified treadmill remarks to give a better representation of what’s going on. See the comments section for a more detailed discussion.
Dan
February 2, 2013
One of my favorite blogs yet. Amazing how intertwined the body can be from head to toe. It’s an unfortunate fact that most physicians continue to attack the symptom rather than the cause. Hopefully the information you have provided accelerates the exposure to the general public. Very intriguing topic about the treadmill as I, (before becoming injured) used to use a treadmill quite often on the ship I used to work on. Even more so at high speeds and on an incline. Either that or I would resort to running in circles on the helipad which I’m sure exacerbated my dysfunction(s). Doesn’t help when the ship is pitching and rolling in the seas, haha. Thanks for the blog! It’s helping me and I hope more read it so they too can reap the benefits.
reddyb
February 3, 2013
You got it Dan. Thanks for the comment.
Lars
March 9, 2013
Hi
I have a posterior pelvic tilt, and I have pain in my lower back specially when I sit down (specially the right quadratus lumborum is giving me pain). What should i train? I would like to have a more flexible, less stiff lower back. When I sit I tend to fall forward, and i havnt a curve in my lower back. Its flat.
I am doing excersices for my posterior pelvic tilt (I train Erector lumborum, ilipsoas and quads). It dont help much. Still almost always falling forward and having pain in right side of quadratus lumborum. What can one do?
Of course, as always, evermore grateful.
reddyb
March 13, 2013
Hey Lars,
Training those muscles won’t help prevent you from falling forward while sitting. Not falling forward while sitting will help not falling forward while sitting though.
In other words, lean back against something rather than leaning / rounding over.
Movement dictates muscle.
Lars
March 9, 2013
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=8PCNfbmATAs
Correction and Progress! I just watched some of that guys videos and learned something that arnt to be found anywere else. I have, as I said, a posterios pelvic tilt. People that have Anterior pelvic tilt – look it up if you dont beleive me anywhere – have usually a shortened psoas. And people that have posterior pelvic have short glute m. And hamstrings, but not psoas major shortness, it is instead long. But this is a myth, according to that guy. So I said: well, I have posterior pelvic tilt, and according to the world of physician I dont have a short psoas major. But when i stretched it, it felt so good – specially in the right side where I tight. So one of my major problems, a short psoas on the right side, is corrected, thanks to that physician who has recognized that the world is not flat (it is his metaphor, and I liked it; everybody else, in my eyes, are a modern part of the inquisition lol)
Anyway, my right side of the body is still rotated to the left. How do I prevent this? Of course my quadratus lumborum still have knots, but the pain has gone down drasticly since i stretched the ilipsoas, or psoas major. I really mean drasticly. I feel a sensation of joy in my body.
reddyb
March 13, 2013
Lars,
You’re getting a bit mixed up here.
You say “short hamstrings.” It’s common for a person to have a posterior pelvic tilt and excessively extended hips / knees. So, while there hamstrings may be short proximally (hips) they are long / on stretch distally (knees). Anatomy isn’t as simple as a muscle is either short or long.
If you’re hips are rotated as you claim, it’s possible the psoas is short on one side but long on the other. Or for one side to be short and one side to not be. And just stretching it and thinking it feels good does not mean it’s tight.
Doing something just because it feels good is not a good path to head down. See all drug addicts ever.
And then the right side of your body can’t all be rotated to the left. It has to either be the shoulders are rotated or the hips are rotated. When one rotates one direction the other rotates another.
Lars
March 17, 2013
Hi
I suppose you are right. But i just really hoped that I, in a way, could fix it by my self.
My right foot supinate a lot. It supinates so mutch that it has changed, The smallest toe has almost a bunion, the foot have been inflamed on that right side of the right foot a while ago. My left foot is supinated just a little bit, not as much. My right knee is laterally rotated (my left too, but not as much), just as your video shows, and I also have posterior pelvic tilt. All this you have proved and showed is coherent in your videos. But the person above has the opposite problem (her foot pronated). Please, could you help me? I strap my right foot every night with bandages to keep my toes a little bit separated (because they have curved towards the bigtoe) and my painfull foot from supinating.
Please, if you could help me with this I would gladly compensate you with a little sum of money. When I do show this to my naprapath – and I have showed it to two! – a scratch on the head is all they produce. I know this probably dont so much, but thank you! Thank you so much!
reddyb
March 18, 2013
Hey Lars,
If you’re looking to set something up with me of that nature feel free to shoot me an email. Works cleaner that way.
b-reddy@hotmail.com
Lars
March 20, 2013
Ive started too train my muscles at the front of the foot and inner thighs. Works super! Together with my other training program that ive mentioned, for my posterior pelvic tilt, it really does wonders. So if you supinate, inner thighs and Muscles In front of the calf helps
joe
April 7, 2014
you wrote: “Keep in mind by the nature of a treadmill the body isn’t doing much work when bringing the leg backwards. (The tread is doing this work.)”
However, I don ‘t think that is correct. If the foot is simply being pulled back (with no equal and opposite force coming from the human), then the person would fall down. However, the person does not fall down (usually), so the person must be exerting force to counteract the movement of the treadmill belt. Basically, it makes no difference if the person is moving over the ground, or the ground is moving beneath the person, as far as the forces are concerned, it’s the same thing.
reddyb
April 9, 2014
Hey Joe,
Thanks for the thoughts.
I give a more detailed account of what happens on a treadmill in this post (towards the end): http://b-reddy.org/2013/06/13/relieving-hip-pain-while-walking/
What you find is, on a treadmill:
-The hamstrings are significantly less active
-The glutes are marginally more active
-The rectus femoris is significantly more active
So, overall:
-The hip extensors are less active
-The hip flexors are more active
[broken link redacted]
At the same time, the joint moments are greater for hip flexion AND hip extension. Joint moments typically reflect changes in muscle activity. Greater moment = greater activity of the muscles around that joint. However, based on the above, this doesn’t seem to happen. That is, while the hip has a greater flexion moment and greater hip flexor activity on a treadmill, this isn’t true in extension. The hip has a greater hip extension moment, but not greater hip extensor muscle activity. Where is that increase in the moment coming from? My understanding = the treadmill.
http://jap.physiology.org/content/104/3/747/F2.large.jpg
At least in this study, with the muscles they studied. There are a bunch of studies on this topic. The one I’m referencing is probably the best I’ve found. In general though, there is not a whole lot of agreement between all the studies. One of the few consistencies I’ve found is, on a treadmill, there isn’t as much work being done at the ankle. The other consistencies have been a change in hamstring and quadriceps activity. This jives well with my above hip comments as less work at the ankle typically involves a change in work at the hip. (You have to get that leg up somehow.)
https://breddydotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/hip-moments-with-increased-push-off.jpg
You talked about the forces being the same thing. What’s important to consider is the experience of running on a treadmill versus overground is not the same thing from the body’s perspective. This is part of the reason for the conflict in the literature: getting a consistency in measurement. A softer treadmill is a different experience for the body than regular ground. So is a treadmill where the belt has slippage (almost always has some). Then there is the way the body is receiving visual input. For example, nothing is moving past you on a treadmill. The authors address this in the study I’m referencing:
Lastly, the other consistency you find in the literature is most papers conclude the differences on the treadmill aren’t worth worrying about. Largely, I agree. In fact, with some small changes, I think the treadmill can probably be, overall, a good tool. I talk about this in more detail in the “Relieving hip pain while walking” post I referenced in the beginning.
The one caveat to this is, and this is where the client I’m talking about in this post comes in, is chronic treadmill use, in the form of running. One of the mitigations I’ve talked about is focusing on increasing ankle push off when using a treadmill, to help offset the lesser ankle work that happens on a treadmill. When running, this is going to be hard. When running for an hour, where you’re tired, I doubt this is going to be able to be done. So, in my mind, chronic running on a treadmill, could present an issue.
Hope that all makes sense!
Long story short, I edited my remark to say “the body isn’t doing the same type of work when bringing the leg backwards. (The tread has influence in how the leg is brought back.)” I think that’s a better representation.
Thanks for bringing this up. I think it’s important.
(Another good link: http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/gait/kinetics/mmactsum.htm )
Joe
April 8, 2014
Hi Brian. Such a beauty to this blog. I know I’ve said it before but I learn more here than anyplace else so don’t go anywhere any time soon.
I just have a question for clarity. When you say APT causes TFL to shorten, doesn’t that mean it becomes more lax because the ASIS attachment is tilting downward? I Understand the dynamic of a tight TFL/ITB becoming like a bowstring and forcing the knee medially as the ITB crosses the knee joint, but how does a “shortened” TFL medially rotate the knee? Unless it’s the pelvic rotation that pulls on the TFL. I swear sometimes I get dyslexic with the multidimensionality. But I love it so I’ll learn it. Thank you.
reddyb
April 11, 2014
Hey Joe,
I believe you answered your own question with your bowstring analogy. Also worth considering is how the TFL, inserting into the IT band, connects down by the knee, where it can laterally rotate the tibia. Rotate the tibia laterally and the femur is, in relation to the tibia, medially rotated. The relationship between the two is what’s most important with knee issues. (The pelvis rotating is something worth considering too.)
There are other things going on here when the pelvis anteriorly rotates. The dynamics at the glutes, hamstrings and even the psoas may change too. All of which can play a role in femoral and tibial rotation.
Fran Eckman
June 18, 2015
Hi.. I have two label tears in my left hip along with arthritis. I am holding off hip replacement as long as i can. PT for my hip was not successfu due to back pain. have a bone spur severly impinging my spine at L 4-5. That is not easy to correct because I had a 3 level fusion 10 years ago and the rod is in the way..I have very bad radiculapathy on my right side. I do wear orthodics and only buy a closed sandal with good support.. I have developed pain on the left bottom of my left foot.. could that be related to the hip? Thank you so much.
reddyb
June 21, 2015
Hey Fran,
Sorry to hear about your issues.
The hips could be influencing the feet, yes. The lower back, particularly if you’re having radiating pain, can influence the feet too. Where some of that radiating pain is being felt in the left foot now too.
It’s very common to have a hip issue and lower back issue, or vice versa. They often need to be addressed concurrently.
Jasmine
November 30, 2020
I used to be a dancer until one day I fell poorly on a my foot and couldn’t walk for quite a long time. albeit it’s been 15 years, it still gives me pain and no matter the x-rays and consultations, I just have to deal with it. I’ve taken up hip hop one year ago because I missed dancing but whilst the other types of dancing cannot be executed with such a problem, this seemed like the nice haven I’d been looking for: no extra pain for exercising and dancing and it made my mood better of course. Until one day I felt pain at the front of my other foot’s ankle, right in the middle. I’ve been resting for a few days but as soon as I started dancing again, the pain came back. What might this stem from? Both my knees have started hurting too.
b-reddy
December 1, 2020
Hey Jasmine,
Sorry to hear about your journey with dancing, but hopefully you’ve found something that works for you now.
In regards to the front of the foot, this may be helpful: https://b-reddy.org/ankle-mobility-mobilizing-the-talus/
With the knees too, overall, you may have just done a bit too much lately and need to take a little time off. Sometimes it’s that simple.
Jasmine
December 5, 2020
I will check it out, thanks! I wasn’t expecting such a fast reply!
Hugs from Italy.